Posts by moggy lover

11

Is the Memorial on Nisan 14 after sundown in Israel or whatever country it is held in?

by sinis in

i can't remember.

don't really care, just something that popped up in my head.

to all the people who are going, i feel sorry for you... ;) i have not set foot in a kh in years!!

moggy lover

Good post, Leolaia, thanks. I could never get the hang of the "Between the evenings" bit.

11

Is the Memorial on Nisan 14 after sundown in Israel or whatever country it is held in?

by sinis in

i can't remember.

don't really care, just something that popped up in my head.

to all the people who are going, i feel sorry for you... ;) i have not set foot in a kh in years!!

You have put your finger on an interesting and perplexing problem which concerns the interpreting of the one text in the OT which nails the time of the Passover. Is it to be observed on the 14th evening of Nisan, or the 15th?

The problem text is Lev 23:5, and the ambiguous reference to "between the evenings". Which evenings? Does it mean the evening of the 14th of Nisan when the Passover lamb is to be eaten [as the Watchtower proposes]? If it is so, then the lamb would have had to killed on the afternoon of the previous day, ie, Nisan 13.

Or does it mean the evening of Nisan 15th? If it does, it must mean that the Passover lamb, would then have to be killed on the afternoon of the 14th and eaten on the evening of the 15th.

The answer is both obtuse and prolix, and remains virtually incomprehensible, especially to someone only marginally interested in the subject. Suffice it to say that Israel, as do most Jews all over the world, eat the Passover lamb on the evening of 15th Nisan, the day [or rather, evening] after that of the Memorial observance of the Watchtower and its followers.

3

Grace vs. Undeserved Kindness

by bats in the belfry in

just doing some research on the wt lib cd - - wow, the balls these people have is just unbearable.. .

is not the new world translation of the christian greek scriptures verbose, for instance, in using catches sight of for sees at 1 john 5:16 and undeserved kindness for grace?j.

s., united states.. .

moggy lover

It is hard to assess the correctness of the NW"T" here in the two cases you cited. Verbosity was a characteristic of Frederick Franz, the chief architect of this [per]version of Scripture. It has in fact been estimated that the Watchtower Bible is almost one third larger than other English language translations. [Compare Ro 13:1 where the NW"T" uses 30 words to say the same thing that NSAB does in 25]

In 1 Jo 5:16, the word "horaw" is used in the aorist tense, and in the subjunctive mood. The main thrust of the subjunctive is to indicate that the action of the verb is possible, depending on contextual nuances, [hence our English "might" "should" "could" etc], but in main clauses or in purpose clauses, then the action does take on a more definite nuance. Thus in the aor subj, the emphasis should be on the mood of the verb, rather than the punctiliar or single action usage.

The same construction as used at 1 Jo 15:16 occurs 4 other times, and in NONE of these has the NW"T" used the expression "catch sight of".

At Lu 2:26, the aor subj is "translated" as a perfect - "had seen"

At Lu 19:4 - it is made into an infinitive in the English "to see"

At Jo 8:56 it is made into a participle, "seeing" and

At 1 Cor 8:10 is is "translated" as it should, that is, a subjunctive - "Should see"

Compare the KIT translations at each of these verses.

I think the point that John is making at 1 Jon 5:16 is that a possibility may occur, when a disciple could, or might see his brother sinning, in which case he need do something...

As far as ""undeserved kindness" is concerned, it is not necessarily wrong, but may not capture the entire range of meaning inherent in the word. It does not necessarily point to God's "kindness" or even that it is "undeserved". It is a word of blessing based on the immutable characteristic of God's love. Hence it is better translated as "favour", and God's favour is not undeserved so much as it is unmerited, or unearned. We cannot earn the favour or blessing of God, it is a free gift. Hence if one feels the need to unpack the term "Grace" which is perfectly adequate to express the Greek, then "unmerited favour" is probably better.

I rather suspect, however, that Franz's need to use "undeserved kindness" was not so much to pay attention to "accuracy" as it was a result of his own personal prejudice. It is a word much favoured by Evangelicals, whom Franz despised, hence his "purer" alternative.

54

Who or what "governs" the teachings of the so-called GOVERNING BODY?

by Terry in

if a person walked up to you one day and started telling you what to do, how to do it, and threatening you if you refused, wouldn't you immediately ask them by what authority they had such a right?

wouldn't you want to see a badge?

credentials?

moggy lover

Self interest.

24

Memorial 2012 Date

by Quendi in

not that i have any intention of attending, but would somebody be so good as to post the date for the memorial "celebration" this year?

.

quendi.

moggy lover

Christians have always paid deference to the Jews in the determining of the day of Passover. The date is calculated on the basis of some complex interpretive conclusions from certain crucial texts in the Pentateuch. This means that there has always been a difference of opinion over whether the Passover is to be celebrated on the night of 14 Nisan or the night of 15 Nisan.

Whereas the vast majority celebrate this on 15 Nisan, [April 6], there has been, for several centuries going back to about 120 AD, a group who believed this should be held on Nisan 14. These ones came to be known as quartodeciman believers [believers in the 14th day] and the controversy came to known as the Quartodecimanian Controversy.

While the debate has largely been resolved over the centuries in favour of 15 Nisan for the Passover, quartodecimanian believers have persisted in isolated pockets in some Middle Eastern Christian communities. When the Watchtower started, Russell, who received his once-a year observation of the Lord's Supper from his Adventist forbears such as George Storrs and others, was a regular 15 Nisan believer, and this continued into Rutherford's reign.

However, when Franz came on the scene, and rose to prominence as the chief theologian in the Watchtower stable, he soon showed himself to be a qurtrodeciman and in the late 1940s the date was moved forward one day.

16

What happened to Milton Henschel losing presidency?

by Band on the Run in

my family often spoke well of milton henschel.

i left when knorr was still president.

looking at the flimiest of personal infos for gb members, i noticed that henschel became president and then was demoted and don adams became president.

moggy lover

My understanding is similar to what sir82 said. By 2000, the GB were given legal advice to rearrange the structure of the Watchtower Organization, because of the legal cases mounting against them. They could, if it came to the crunch, be legally responsible for any doctrinal aberration that was published by the WTBTS. [Similar to the "mentally diseased" absurdity of last year].

The advice was to relegate the position of Watchtower president to a largely ceremonial one, exacting no real power, while the real power remained behind in a nebulous, hermetically sealed body that was all but impenetrable to public scrutiny. This body was to be legally removed from the WTBTS, while at the same time invisibly still controlling the whole shebang.

Thus if any such legal action was taken, these men could always say: "Who us? Don't know wha' your'e talkin' about. We didn't write that stuff".

Even Don Adams who was "kicked upstairs" to keep this position warm could say, "Sorry mate, don't ask me, I don't write this stuff".

This stratagem worked, and now, anyone suing the Watchtower for anything, finds himself in a minefield of legal ambiguities that requires a mind numbing set of complexities to unravel.

34

WT Library 2011

by Haelcer in

new watchtower library 2011 in english is available here:.

.

http://www.filestube.com/46b7d96d595f742503eb/go.html.

moggy lover

Thumbs up and thanks. This is an invaluable resource for those researching Watchtower material. It is truly ironic as another poster has said, that we have got it ahead of many in the organization!!

Thanks again

Cheers

4

Divine Wisdom from the honorable Judge Rutherford

by Terry in

i hope you will pay respect to jehovah's anointed president of the watchtower society and not mock him when you read this.. after all, jehovah was speaking through rutherford to make certain food (for thought) came at the proper time!.

as the director of the watchtower important insight was granted him of enormous importance.. it would have been blasphemous of rutherford to misuse what was entrusted to him by jehovah if he were to impose his.

own quirks and prejudices on others and pass them off as "revealed" truth or new light.. are we agreed?.

moggy lover

Of course he was inspired by the spirit when he said that.

Spirit?

As in Jack Daniels, not Holy.

53

Well, the pdf of the March 2012 WT is hot off the press!

by serenitynow! in

and it does not disappoint.

the first century brothers are on the cover, going door to door with what look like leather messenger bags.. the first article is entitled, are all "christians" christian.

and you can tell by the picture that anyone with a beard or goatee is definitely not a real christian.. the next article, remain in my word has this quote that condemns catholics but seems eerily close to what jws believe:.

moggy lover

Very becoming fashion conscious Watchtowerites of the first century.

The bloke in the green and yellow gown has got the latest business suit from the House of Claudius and Russell, haberdashers of renown. While the turban, worn at just the right rakish angle is the latest head gear from Rutherford and Ptolemy, who can find the best head coverings for any modestly abject, cringing woman.

Of course, the shoulder strap and bag is the very latest fashion accessory from the flesh pots of Rome. No snake oil salesman or door-to-door peddler should be without one.

All these and many more of the latest fashion gear are available in our Summer catalogue of 33 AD out now!

25

A BIG change the Watchtower will have to face up to . . .

by nicolaou in

1995 drew a line of demarcation.

the doctrinal rudder of freddie franz was gone, the sacred cow of the 1914-generation had been slaughtered and the internet had arrived!.

it will take a while longer but the time is coming when pre-1995 old timers like the gentleman below will be an impotent force within the society - if that hasn't happened already.

moggy lover

I think it could be sooner that 10-15 years. We have just over two years to go to enter the crucial year of 2014, which will linger as the skunk at the proverbial party through all those 365 days. Credulity has its limits, and I am sure many will discover the irony in 100 years of empty promises, re-evaluated dogmas, and new bigotries directed toward dissenters, and will vote with their feet.

Again, I think the older ones will be largely unmoved since, having expended so much time and effort in this religious movement, and having heard so many "explanations" for theological improprieties, that they will continue to swallow this. It is the young, the curious and the creative, the ones that the Watchtower so desperately needs, who will defect in large numbers.